Live Switching

[krisneph]

I do some video editing for my church in Final Cut Pro. I use a 800Mhz iMac with 512 of RAM and a Superdrive. They want to start doing live recording so the church wants to buy 2 cameras a DVCAM deck and a switcher. They have something in mind I basically want some opinions on some of the hardware.

They want the following

2 Sony PD150's
http://shop.store.yahoo.com/sizzili...dsprmidvca.html

Sony DSR11 DVCAM Recorder
http://osdn.pricegrabber.com/search...13a86fed5efd10c

MXProDV Digital Video Mixer
http://www.camcor.com/cgi-bin/bcata...d&id=1073406416

plus anything else we might need

If anyone has experience in this please feel free to suggest any other hardware components

[jhwilson]

i couldn't get the links to your equipment to work, but our church has extensively researched the equipment and are doing the same as you. We are purchasing the PD170s though, because they're the upgrade from the 150. We're using the Videonics mixer and the DSR11. We are isolating sound with a separate mixer and using a G5 with FCP.

If we can help you in any way, just email me at jhwilson@cox-internet.com.

[krisneph]

Here are the links again
Sony DSR11
http://osdn.pricegrabber.com/search_...3a86fed5efd10c

Videonics MX-Pro Digital MIxer
http://www.camcor.com/cgi-bin/bcatal...&id=1073406416

Were thinking on getting a G5 too. Right now were just getting started. I've been doing the announcements on video for some time now they want to do this live stuff. I don't know anything about this, but I know I can learn.

Do you guys run this setup now? If so, how's the quality? They want to be able to have DVD's ready by the end of the service. Just out of curiosity where are you located. We are in Tucson, AZ.

[Josh]

Here's the MXPro for $300 less...

http://www.videoguys.com/videonics.html#mxprodv

For two cameras, here's a lower cost option:

http://www.markertek.com/MTStore/Sto...earch=switcher

I would go with 2 Canon GL2s- twice the focal length (zoom) range (try getting a closeup of a guitarists fingers with a PD170 from a distance- can't be done!) and non-interlaced option for more filmlike look. Also better audio if you ever use as standalone.

Also, you'll need a small audio mixer with faders- Behringer or Mackie are two good options.

I hate to say this in a FCP forum, but I would use Liquid Edition- you can capture right to the timeline live from the mixer during the service and have a DVD master cooking within minutes (integrated DVD authoring). Just something to consider.

[krisneph]

Here's the deal the guy in charge has wanted to get some PD-150's for some time now. All of a sudden he wanted to get a Panasonic AG-DVC7 I looked in to that I found out it's only I one chip camera. I had suggested the Canon GL2 to cause I've read really good reviews on it. He said that you couldn't change the lens on it and he wanted the Sony-PD150's again. I'm just doing research right now but I think the GL2's are really nice and cheaper.

Can you help me make a case for the GL2 over the Sony PD150? Can you give me a better idea on how this setup should be hooked up(if possible)? And if you guys know of any good DVD duplicators or recorders that I might need. We need to have DVD's ready for the end of the service to sell(very low price for people) ?

[Craig O]

Hey Just noticed your question about DVD replication. I would recomend checking this company out:
www.discmakers.com
They offer an array of duplicators that would probably do the trick. My company currently uses the MXPro DV along with 1 XL1s, GL1 and GL2 with a wide angle lens adapter. Two of the cameras are running on firewire and the third is running through s-video. To make for faster editing I have it running through videonics Firestore system..so that when we edit there's no capturing. We do however at times run into problems. But overall it's a really neat setup.

[Jonesy]

We use the Edirol V4.....

Very very pleased with it

http://www.edirol.com/products/info/v4.html

If your interested in it, we are a reseller for Edirol equipment. Give you a good deal

[krisneph]

We use the Edirol V4.....
Very very pleased with it

http://www.edirol.com/products/info/v4.html

If your interested in it, we are a reseller for Edirol equipment. Give you a good deal

Hey can you give me some idea of how you have this setup. I'm still a little clueless on how all this works.

Are the cameras connected to the mixer thought S-Video cables?

Are we gonna need some kind of headsets for communication between the camera men?

Anything else that we might need to purchase to make all this work?

Oh and I found this for live webcasts it seems pretty good.
http://www.channelstorm.com

All help is appreciated
Thanks!!

Originally posted by Craig O
Two of the cameras are running on firewire and the third is running through s-video

How are you doing your audio? I work at a two-school high school district and found that I had audio sync issues when mixing digital cameras with analog audio. Here's what I mean:

2 (or 3) XL1 cameras. Each is FireWired into a media converter so we can use long RCA cables to run the signal back to the switcher (a Videonics digital switcher).

Whatever audio we had, I initially tried to go straight into the Videonics switcher with it and shut off audio-follows-video so I can cut between my cameras and have an uninterrupted audio feed from a single mixer.

Of course, once your camera's output is converted to analog, it's several milliseconds behind reality because of the D->A conversion. (So how are you successfully mixing FireWire with S-Video analog?) Factor in an external analog audio mix, and the video would be out of sync with the audio.

What I came up with was this: we route the output of our Mackie 1202 mixer into whichever camera is closest to the switcher (remember, the camera is FireWired to a media converter). Then, in addition to taking the analog video into the Videonics mixer, I also take the RCA audio outputs from the media converter and go straight into the VCR with it.

Result:

Don't need to worry about audio following video on the switcher because audio is going straight from the camera (media converter) into the VCR. This also eliminates the sync issue because the audio is delayed right along with the video.

Before you ask, I believe the reason we went with media converters and long RCA cables was simple economics: we needed the cameras far from the switcher to cover pep rallies and theatrical events, but long FireWire cables were prohibitively expensive and rumored to be unreliable. Also, I think the MX1000 has only two FireWire inputs and we wanted to switch 3 cameras.

- Mike

[Josh]

Originally posted by krisneph
I had suggested the Canon GL2 to cause I've read really good reviews on it. He said that you couldn't change the lens on it and he wanted the Sony-PD150's again. Can you help me make a case for the GL2 over the Sony PD150?

You can't change the lens on the PD150 either. Two reasons I would choose the GL2:

1. 20x optical zoom over 10x

2. Frame Mode- option to shoot with a filmlike look if you want it

Originally posted by krisneph
Can you give me a better idea on how this setup should be hooked up(if possible)? And if you guys know of any good DVD duplicators or recorders that I might need. We need to have DVD's ready for the end of the service to sell(very low price for people) ?

Just run the cameras into the switcher- S-video or firewire, won't make any difference because the Videonics converts firewire to analog anyway.

If you want DVDs ready right away you will need real time MPEG2 conversion. One solution would be the Hauppage PVR-250 card for PC which creates impressive quality MPEG2 files that can be instantly burned to DVD. You will want a precomposed menu (Photoshop) with the church name, date, pastor name, website and other details.

You'll need a simple PC DVD authoring program that can use the MPEG2 files (Sonic DVDit?), and as Craig noted diskmakers.com offers replicators.

Of course, you'll need a PC also, so I've moved this thread away from the FCP forum.

[jhwilson]

Krisneph,

Since you asked me, I will tell you some more about what I have done and would do.

We looked at the GL2 and chose not to get them. With the rebates, they were cheaper. And yes, we had to get the 1.7 lenses from Sony as well.

However, we tested the GL2 and the PD170 in our sanctuary and found that if we ever, and I mean ever, left the bright lights for any reason, we were out of luck with the GL2. The Sony cameras outperformed, in our humble opinion, the GL2 in overall color, skin tones (out of the box) and in low light situations. We actually ended up buying the vx2100 cameras because of the lack of needing DVCAM or XLR inputs. We are basically sending an S-video signal back to the broadcast room.

As for film look or HD, we are a basic broadcast and have no desire for that.

We have many things in common and don't visit this forum often, that's why I haven't replied.

If you need to contact me, just do so and we can learn from each other. The GL2 cameras might be wonderful for you. They just weren't the solution we were looking for at this time.

[jhwilson]

And contrary to what anybody says, using FCP or any other solution, you cannot have duplicated DVD's ready at the end of any service...period.

The authoring aside, you cannot duplicate them in time to distribute.

We are capturing to a DSR-11 and a firestore simultaneously and can edit very quickly using lower thirds and intros and outs, but it still takes a bit to do.

Even if you ran it as a live broadcast with all graphics, you couldn't duplicate the DVD's like you can audio cassettes.

FYI and IMHO

[krisneph]

Thanks for all your replies. Right now I'm still doing research. I seems that having DVD's ready by the end of the service will not be possible right a way. Another thing I really don't want to use a PC (no offense to anyone). The reason is that I also do the monthly newsletter and I'm very happy with my Mac.


We need I camera that performs well under low light conditions and if the GL2 doesn't do that well I'll have to consider other options. I was also looking at the Sony VX2100's I have to consider everything. These cameras make very tough to make a choice.

And the question about audio I don't know. We have a pretty good audio engineer available that might be able to help me. I suppose we can hook up the switcher to the PA system. I really don't know much about all this type of equipment mainly the graphics/computer part of this is my strong point.

All recommendations hare have been great and jhwilson i'll try to contact you thought your e-mail when were ready to make a purchase.

Oh and can anyone recommend some good monitors for when were live.

I guess most thing we need are covered.

Switcher
Cameras
DV deck
Editing Software(FTP)
Cable(S-Video,Firewire...)
Monitors?

And for DVD I guess we can have it for a week after or we will just do that for special events. I would do that with FCP and probably iDVD to begin with, before I step up to DVD Studio Pro.

jhwilson's comment about not being able to duplicate by the end of the service is right on. Burning a 1-hour DVD REQUIERS at least 20 minutes! Even with lower-3rds and titles pre-rendered, you'd be out of luck to do any editing.

And all the duplicators out there just have a stack of blank DVD's on a spindle, then a robot arm to load them into a SINGLE burner, then pull them out and drop into a tray before putting the next blank in. (Yes, I know there are multi-burner duplicators, but they don't have more then about 11 burners, still well below a reasonable number to duplicate for each service.)

One possibility would be to have multiple DVD recorders to record the ilve switched feed. Then have multiple DVD dupers to take the multiple masters to duplicate and hand insert the blanks. This still would cost in the area of about $15K-25K (or more!) just for the DVD part of the project... and would STILL require time to duplicate for the teeming masses.

I hate to say it, but offering to sell last-weeks service seems to be the only way that I can see.

Sorry I didn't give much constructive criticism, but I've seen many a client of mine try to do the impossible with a limited amount of time. With enough money, (read: Bill Gates bank account,) almost anything can be done. But is it really worth it in the end?

Good luck!